Edited by Mark S. Harris bladesmithing-msg
bladesmithing-msg - 3/24/97
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, most of the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris
AKA: Stefan li Rous
markh@risc.sps.mot.com
From: powers@cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 10 Jul 1995 17:00:51 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>stock would I request?
>
>Many thanks for the assitance, Tatiana Dieugarde
Pray pardon me milady Tatiana; I fear I could not help but overhear you asking about knife steels as I loitered on this bridge. May I converse with you about this?
I am afraid I did not catch what tools you have access to so I will provide various options.
The old file, (and I mean "old" file, some modern files are playing fast and loose with case-hardening and powder metallurgy!) is oft used due to its carbon content, often being close to 1%!, ease of procurement and the advantage of it being already tempered to a hard and brittle state. This is an advantage to people who have not access to a forge, kiln, torch or other commonly used method of heat treating a blade. The file, already being tempered too hard, is drawn to a tougher temper using a kitchen oven, (depending on the file and how you plan to use/mis-use the knife and how you like the blade, you would bake it at 400-550 F), then worked into the blade being carefull to keep the temperature of the blade cooler than the drawing temperature. The disadvantage is that the metal is still harder than annealed stock and so it is more difficult to work.
If you were to step into a machine shop; you could ask for any of a number of steels, based on what you wanted from your blade and what tools you have access to.
Among them:
O-1, commonly available, fairly cheap, known and used by knifemakers for years. This steel will rust and is heat treated by heating to its curie temperature and quenching in oil. In annealed state you can file/grind/abrade it to shape.
5160, commonly available as leaf spring stock--ask a springshop to buy scraps, the pieces along the road oft contain hidden cracks and stresses! It should be cheap. This material also will rust, and has a lower carbon content than O-1 so you will draw it to a different temperature after quenching it, (I prefer an oil quench for 5160 as well)
440C, probably the most used steel by custom knifemakers. This is a stainless steel that is very resistant to rust, takes a mirror polish and holds an edge. (I can't talk about heat treat since I don't use this one much, a good knifemaking book like _The Complete Bladesmith_ by Jim Hrisoulas should cover it, (I never can remember Jim's sca name), or Machinery's handbook, or ask at the machine shop). Probably more expensive than the others.
Steels not in ones best interest to try working by hand as a beginners project include such things as D2, Stellite, VascoWear,... most being hard to work and needing precise heat treating to get your money's worth from these alloys.
When I teach bladesmithing I usually try to use a simple straight carbon steel like 1080, 1075, 1095; often salvaged from old farm equipment, spark tested, and drawn to personal preference. Its only on their third knife that we start talking about pattern welding! (Morcant you lucked out!)
wilelm the smith who does a billet every pennsic as a personal momento...
From: scj427@aol.com (SCJ427)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 11 Jul 1995 00:50:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
For knifemaking and other cutting questions may I make two
recommendations.
Stock removal method is the easiest to master for a beginner. You can clamp a belt sander in a vice to approximate a table sander and get some passable results. To use tool steel, (such as old files) you either have to spend a lot on abrasives or anneal the stuff to soften it first. A Glover pocket reference is good info. It contains a lot on engineering formulae and other neat info. One thing is the relationship to heated steel color and temperature for the type of steel. A good quick reference if you don't do forging regularly.
Try junkyards for stock. One of the best shortswords I turned out (when I had access to a forge many moons ago) started life as a leaf spring from an old Packard.
Hope it helps,
Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon
From: txspeed@aol.com (TX Speed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 11 Jul 1995 13:58:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with. My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife (for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar stock would I request?
Many thanks for the assitance,
Tatiana Dieugarde
(please respond to the net as my private email account is undergoing repair)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I like ATS-34. Not quite as rust-resistant as 440c, but it seems to work better for me. Easy to grind and hardens nicely. Will hold an edge better than 440c, though it's not quite as strong. It won't darken and look rustic (rusty?) with age, but for a general SCA knife you probably want something stainless. Most knifemaker's supplys will have as much ATS as any industrialized nation could ever want, but you probably have to buy a foot of it at least.
Ld. Gundy
From: mfaul@netscape.com (Mike Faul)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 14 Jul 1995 23:22:30 GMT
Organization: Netscape Communications Corp.
In article <3u4v6t$ej9@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, raclapp@ibm.net says... >
>In <3trsmp$u8b@news.missouri.edu>, Shannon Ward
<sward02@mail.coin.missouri.edu> writes:
>>I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>>stock would I request?
>
Used files found at flea markets/yard sales will do what you need. Old sayz or hacksaw blades work too. Chainsaw bars too.
If ou want good quality metal ask for 1095 or other 10xx number metal.thats plain carbon steel. use 1045 - 1095
440 stainless is okay too as is D2 tool steel.
Mike
From: raclapp@ibm.net
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 14 Jul 1995 05:26:53 GMT
In <3trsmp$u8b@news.missouri.edu>, Shannon Ward <sward02@mail.coin.missouri.edu> writes: >I recently took a beginning knife-making class and now I'm all
>pumped to make some sharp cutty things for my scribe's box. The
>instructor of the class advocated using old files to begin with.
>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>stock would I request?
Try old Circular saw blades, until you get a good handle on the tricks. They make good blades that hold up well, to everyday use.
Richard. Clapp
Columbus, OH
From: breneth@realm.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (David Robertson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 10 Jul 95 21:33:38 EST
Organization: The Realm Of Twilight BBS * (519)748-9026
Greetings
There are several types of steel that will make excellent knives and other cutting edge tools. First you have to decide how you want to harden the material oil, water , brine, or other exotic solutions. Water is the easiest to get which would mean using a tool steel called W1 or W2. If you decide to use oil watch out for the flash back but O1 is an excellent knife steel. Old files and springs can be used but often there are stress cracks already in the material when you get it used, many a blade has been lost to un seen cracks that usually show up when you harden it. New material is the best and that way you know what you are getting. Some suppliers will be able to give you a copy of the hardening and tempering sequence for the particular tool steels that they carry. A word of caution these sheets are based on labratory testing and as a blade smith your temperatures will be more by eye than pyrometer.
Best of Luck
If you have any questions:
breneth@realm.tdkcs.waterloo.ca
From: jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Bladesmith Book Info
Date: 27 Jul 1995 17:16:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
After numerous requests, I have decided it would be easier just to post this information:
"THE COMPLETE BLADESMITH"
All are in print and available from Paladin Press, P.O. Box 1307, Boulder Colorado, 80306, USA...
Also my mailing address is:
Dr. J.P. Hrisoulas
Salamander Armoury
330 South Decatur, ste 109
Las Vegas, NV 89017 USA.
Maybe this will help slow the deluge of mail I have been getting on this subject..
Thank you!!!
Atar Bakhtar
From: Rick&Joy <rickaj@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 23:35:03 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
<raclapp@ibm.net> writes:
>>My question to any knowledgable person out there is: If I walked
>>into my local metal shop to get suitable metal to make a small knife
>>(for eating, carving quills, gen.utility, etc.), what kind of bar
>>stock would I request?
>
>Try old Circular saw blades, until you get a good handle on the tricks.
>They make good blades that hold up well, to everyday use.
Watch out for circular saw blades. While the old ones were made with a good L6 steel mostly, many of the newer ones are made with high speed steels. this means that while you CAN make a knife out of them it is hard to forge and hard to grind (not to ment
ion it is a pain in the rump to forge or cut a small pattern out of a circular sheet of steel.)
I would recommend going to your local wrecking yard and picking up a fairly thin leaf spring. If you have access to a table saw (NOT a skilsaw) put a metal cutting blade (fiberberglass and emery thing) and cutting knife length and width pieces out of it.
Itf you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck. Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
From: powers@cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: 31 Jul 1995 12:13:00 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
> Itf you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile
>down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can
>sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck.
>Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
L.S.
I do not advocate the use of previously broken leaf springs for knife stock. Failure mode for the spring seems to be the creation of multiple cracks in the steel one of which propagates catastrophically, leaving the others hidden in the metal to be discovered *after* you have already put a lot of work into the blade. Instead; go to a local spring maker and get their "left-overs" pieces left after they cut a length of stock for a spring. If you talk nicely; they may give you 10 pounds or so of pieces free. Otherwise I have always been able to buy at the going scrap rate.
After being "burned" a couple of times I have stopped using roadkill springs and am much happier with the "good stuff"
wilelm the smith
From: Rick&Joy <rickaj@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another blacksmithing question
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 18:47:17 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
william thomas powers <powers@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>> Itf you have no saw then you will spend most of your time forging the profile
>>down. I have had huge amounts of luck with this technique. Besides you can
>>sometimes get the leaf springs gratis if they are broken. Good luck.
>>Rick "the blacksmith at heart doomed to live in an apartment" Johnson
>
>L.S.
>
>I do not advocate the use of previously broken leaf springs for knife stock.
>Failure mode for the spring seems to be the creation of multiple cracks
>in the steel one of which propagates catastrophically, leaving the others
Since this is a response to my own response I shall respond. VERY GOOD POINT. I have never made a large blade from a leaf spring because you never know exactly what is in them but I have made many small ones and this may explain the mysterious failure of a couple. I shall now shop at the local spring maker like you. Thanks
Rick
From: jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "mistrust anything made in India"
Date: 3 Jul 1996 17:03:24 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
As far as Indian quality on edged weapons go..this varies, widely! I have run spectro's on all sorts of various and sundry items, both new and "old" (200+ years) and the quality is subjective.
As it stands, professionally speaking, myself I wouldn't buy anything from Museum replicas IF I was looking for a serious "social problem" solver, (but then again, I am in the position of being able to make much better items myself...Others are not as fortunate.).BUT for the most part, as far as what re-enactors and SCA types look for..Hey have at it. But beware, as quality is variable from MRL... I have seen some decent stuff come from them as well as a boat anchor or two..
MRL does however fill a niche, the one between the $40.00 cheapie sword and the $750.00 and up custom....You do get what you pay for from a reputable company, and this does apply to MRL.
If you are looking for something that looks decent and will not fall apart in you hands, look at MRL...If you want a sword that is as good as you can find...Well, you will have to go to a REPUTABLE blade maker and you should be prepared to pay more, considerably more than the few hundred dollars that MRL blades run.
I have seen some decent blades (especially those from the New Delhi Gun House) that are wonderful, made from top quality materials and others, still from India that were made from some "mystery metal" ...Unable to harden, with very low (less than 30 points) carbon content...
All I can suggest is to look at the item, ask for a warranty and use you best judgement....
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Author, Bladesmith, Lecturer, Metallographer
aka
Atar Bakhtar, OL
From: JHrisoulas@aol.com
To: markh@risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:13:44 -0400
Subject: blades
In a message dated 96-07-06 16:22:07 EDT, you write:
In article <4rlrc9$plb@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas) wrote:
> There are much better blades available , but you will be paying much more > for them...Case in point: my own...(But I am not trying to sell anyone > anything)
>
> But for the money, (if my memory serves correctly they are in the $300.00 > range, it has been a while since I have seen a MRL catalog) they are > servicable, although in my opinion they are very, very soft. >
> As far as MRL vs the originals, well the originals were not all that > bad...From what I and several other metallographers and historians have > been able to piece together from blade fragments doing gas, spectros and > other tests (no one with a complete sword would let us have a piece to run > tests on..drats) most of the blades would compare favourably under > today's standards. I would say that MRL is right in there with the mid > range of the originals, not bad, but not as good as they could be.. >
> Now I am not saying that originals were all wonderful, there was still a > lot of "junk" being made back then, just like today, but the pieces that > we have tested, 80% were made from decent materials...How they were heat > treated, we cannot really tell, other than that they were hardened and > tempered. Blades from the 14th Cent on were pretty good...generally...
In reply to your inquiry about blades..
After the first Crusade, the pattern welded blade pretty much disappeared due to the time required to properly make them.. There was simply too much of a demand for arms and the smiths tended to go towards the carburized iron... While these made a servicable blade, the quality wasn't all that good...
As techniques and knowledge inproved, the quality did also. I have tested pieces from most finds, dating from the 4th Cent up to the 15th and most blades, (sword) were not all thta bad...Which goes to form as a sword has always been a "nobles" weapon and not very common for the "average soldier"....Hence the better materials...
Knives are a different matter entirely.....
As far as pattern welding goes, this allows for a better blade to be made with less steel, hence making the ammount of higher quality materials "go farther"..
Hope I answered your question..
Dr JP Hrisoulas
From: jhrisoulas@aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Forge Question: Damascus vs Pattern Welding
Date: 9 Sep 1996 09:25:46 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <3230c4eb.158995761@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
david.razler@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) writes:
>The books, of course, also contain information on every facet of forging
>steel
>with the major emphasis on custom knifework. The only petty fault I've found
>with either is Jim's use of the word "Damascus" to describe pattern-welded
>blades, something I think he addresses in his third book entitled, if memory
>serves me right, "The Patern-Welded Blade."
Speaking in my own defense here:
It seems that whenever I used the term "pattern welded" I got this blank stare, and when I explained the processes involved, the "little light" came on in the other individual's head and they said; "Oh you mean "Damascus" steel?"...
Hence I had to use that term in the first two books to try to "wean" the general public off the more popular, allbeit incorrect term, and onto the more correct name for this material....
JP Hrisoulas
aka
Atar Bakhtar
From: powers@colon.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: New Oakeshott book: viking swords?
Date: 16 Dec 1996 20:06:18 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
>| I have been asked to put out this feeler: R. Ewart Oakeshott, respected
>| author of "The Archaeology of Weapons" and "The Sword in the Age of
>| Chivalry", is reportedly working on a new book called "The Sword in the
>| Viking Age." (Don't dive for your handy desk-side copy of Forthcoming
>| Books; he's a British author!) Has anybody else heard about this new book?
>|
>The best source of information would probably be through Museum Replicas,
>which has Ewart under contract as technical advisor.
>
>He did write the *appendix* for The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England by HR Ellis
>Davidson, recently re-issued by Barnes and Noble. The appendix is his
>how-I-did-it on the forging of a "Viking" pattern-welded blade.
> dmr/A,T
>David M. Razler
Close; I have a copy of the Boydell Press version right here. The appendix on forging of a "Viking" pattern-welded blade is, of course by John Anstee, Oakeshott wrote the following appendix "The Shifford Sword".
For those of you into such fun things; I would commend to your attention "A Modern Replication Based on the Pattern-Welded Sword of Sutton Hoo" a monograph by Robert Engstrom, Scott Lankton and Audrey Lesher-Engstrom Medieval Institute Publications, Western Michigan University, isbn 0-918720-29-x.
There has also been some discussion about the use of round rod in forging pattern welded blades. This was originally posited; but as more hands-on research is being done it seems less likely since the patterns found can be duplicated easier through the use of rectangular stock combined with twisting. Much simpler than making rod stock!
wilelm the smith
From: jhrisoulas@aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anvils and smiths .Small forge welds
Date: 11 Jan 1997 16:31:25 GMT
In article <32D7372B.430@epix.net>, Woody <webersol@epix.net> writes:
>Also for tempering your products, a molten lead bath was a period way.
>lead melts and boils at just the right temperature for tempering steel.
>(another be carefull) boiling lead is DANGEROUS do this outdoors and
>don't let the EPA know.
Pardon me, but I must interject here. This is one of the most irresponsible statements as far as the health and well being of others that I have read in a very long time. There are enough hazards involved in doing this that you should NEVER use boiling lead as you can not only poison yourself but anyone else in the area.
And doing this outdoors is as bad, if not worse than even using the boiling lead. I am sorry about this folks but there are far too many reasons (not to mention common sense) NOT to do this.
Heavy metals poisoning is nothing to laugh about or take lightly. Boiling lead is a good way to get yourself dead, or severe nerve damage, and contaminate the surrounding area as well.
As far as letting the EPA know. I hope they do find out personally. As much as I cannot understand the "whys" of most of the EPA regs, I have to abide by them. As a professional metalworker I have the EPA, OSHA and several other govermental agencies pay me a vist several times a year. They are there for a reason and if anyone decides to do something as dangerous and as negligent as boiling lead, well you deserve everything that you will get.
Using boiling heavy metals for anything, is hazardous and totally irresponsible on a "hobbiest" level...
Besides there is NO USE for boiling lead to be used as a tempering medium as lead boils at 2900 Degrees F anyway and that is at the melting point of most steels. so using boiling lead is useless. Even using molten lead isn't that good an idea as far as blades go as it's liquidus is 620 degrees F and that temperture is more or less useless as most blades are tempered below 475 degrees F...Now using a lead/tin alloy will lower liquidus temp but still this is foolhardy in the extreme...
I am not sorry about coming down this hard and fast on this, as the health of people is at issue. Like I said before, this is hazardous enough without doing something as stupid as this, just because it's "period"...What's next? Not using eye protection because safety glasses "aren't period"???
There is NO REASON to place yourself or anyone else in danger just because "something's in period"....
Atar, Baron Bakhtar, OL
aka
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Metallographer, Bladesmith, Author
<the end>
Return to the Rialto Index.